| Subject | Re | Created By | Start Date | Last Post | ||
| Jews of color | [21] | Bechirah | 17 Mar 19:23 | 20 Jun 17:20 | ||
| Feedback for Inappropriate Profiles | [12] | Anonymous | 16 Jan 23:07 | 5 Apr 11:24 | ||
| marriage & prostitution | [28] | SimpleMan | 13 Mar 14:57 | 4 Apr 20:01 | ||
| Evil plan to get more dates | [35] | Anonymous | 6 Jan 01:19 | 18 Feb 11:50 | ||
| Get together in Brooklyn | [2] | Single&Frum | 23 Mar 16:56 | 18 Feb 11:45 | ||
| Page 1 of 6 1 ·2·3·4·5·6 Total of 28 Threads | ||||||
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marriage & prostitution |
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I've been struggling with this issue for awhile frankly. a friend told me that they conducted a study of sexes cross-culturally (from western civilz to tribal africa) as to what the primary "things", if you will, that each sex looks at in the other. That of men - i don't need to tell you. that of women came out to be "security" (whether financially, emotionally, etc). i.e. a good looking guy doesn't do it for a woman enough to marry him (as it can be for men). there needs to be certain "credentials" Now that having been said (and i think empirically known to be true as well) my question is what distinguishes marriage from prostitution other than the "stakes" of the deal? |
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| By: SimpleMan | |
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A prostitute finally leaves. Perhaps it's simply a matter of the duration of the relationship so to speak. Marriage is of a longer term with different commitments. |
| Anonymous - 13 Mar 2PM |
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what if i offer a prostitute a house, food, and clothes for many years. does that make it a marriage? what are those commitments that you mentioned that differentiate marriage? |
| SimpleMan 13 Mar 2PM |
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Perhaps a woman's viewpoint might be appreciated. Yes, security...financial and emotional (both are equally important) is a strong factor. Certainly a good looking man,doesn't hurt (if you can get it why not?). Many woman have their own professions and in some situations may even make more money than their spouse. Others sacrificed their dreams to create a home and hearth for said gentleman. Later, in fact...he may decide drop her and if he can get away with it, perhaps put her on the street. Some of these woman may end up as a 'lady of the night' instead of getting minimum wage/welfare while raising their children. Some prostitutes actually dislike men and would not want one 24/7 even if he offered her a house and lodgings for many years. A woman who married a man for all the right reasons may in fact feel like a prostitute without the financial trappings. She may have her house, and vacations and have to be 'on demand' sexually for her husband. He may not show her any emotional security, he may not give her terribly much money for her household expenses...but feels that he owns her and her body because he provides a roof over her head and that could render her a 'prostitute' in somebody's mindset. A professional call girl, unless she has a controlling pimp...calls her own shots. She does not require a house, food and clothes from some male who wishes to have the milk and not buy the cow (vis a vis marrying her). She can also spread disease to the gentleman in question or he to her; thereby infecting his 'wife' or her other clients and consequently, their wives. Anonymous offers that a prostitute 'finally' leaves. She might be thrilled that her 'john (client)' is finally finished with and then he 'finally' leaves and she doesn't have to worry about being an emotional salve for his masculine ego or concern herself about the extent of his hubris...while a wife has to concern herself with all kinds of issues. i.e. her attractiveness to her husband, or her distain for this lack of emotional support or his lack of interest in pleasing her in the bedroom while she has to plan the family's itinerary, activiites, children's school problems and homework, balancing the checkbook, planning menus and if she is religious, all the incumbent responsibilities therein. She also has to be the 'whore' in the bedroom to make sure that she has a good chance of distracting him from finding someone else to replace her as a wife, or a 'playmate'. Quite frankly, the prostitute is probably the happier camper in many of these sceneries. Granted it is not a glamorous job, and the risks involved and the danger to her person is always ever present. If she is a higher priced prostitute 'call girl' she doesn't need the guy's house, clothes, or food. She can take off to the French Riveria, stay in five star hotels, buy designer clothes and furs that the average guy could never provide his wife with and while on her 'holiday' she has the means and the place to augment her income. So, yes SimpleMan, offer her the little house with the white picket fence and some Value Village clothing and some food with a restaurant outing once a month and why wouldn't she go for it. She won't have the emotional commitment of a wife but then she won't require your emotional commitment either. She isn't married to you nor you to she, so it's open season sexually too. She might not want to accept your making her a honest woman if she becomes pregnant and she might opt for an abortion and your future progeny would be 'gone with the wind'. A wife would want your child. She would do her best to provide a loving supportive home for you and your children. But I caution you and any other man...if you continue to take her for granted and don't show her appreciation, affection and attention, then she will be out the door and hopefully she will have a great divorce lawyer and that house that is a home no longer will be listed on her side of the board. A woman wants to be loved and cherised and secure on all fronts...give her that and you will be enriched beyond your wildest dreams. That describes a wife and prosititute won't give a damn about the other stuff as long as you continue to cough up the dough! And when she speaks pillow talk to you, it will be lies and garbage aimed at your ego only as a bridge to your pocket book. Your wife will tell you the truth, unless you deviate from the course and then she might not even bother to try to lie to you, because quite frankly she won't give a damn. So guys, you have been warned! REMEMBER: Appreciation, Affection and Attention...that's a lot cheaper than a prostitute and you also have her appreciation, her affection and her attention and that spells commitment like none other. |
| here I am 13 Mar 5PM |
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here i am- i read your post 3x (and printed it out in addition so as to better facilitate understanding). Everything you said is well but i think you're misunderstanding my question. My question is not what is the difference between a PROSTITUTE and a wife. That you've amply provided differences. My question is what is the difference between the concept of PROSTITUTION and marriage. In other words, can we safely say that marriage is a form (albeit an elevated form) of a prostitutional arrangement in which "if you give me this i promise to give you that". You mention Appreciation. Affection and Attention (AAA) as a summary but that's exactly my point -- How many nice guys who offer AAA but are lacking in jobs, money, stability, etc wind up with no girls and how many guys with money and power (and dare i say butt-ugly looks) treat girls like garbage and wind up with girls right and left? What does that say? Sassy- you know i'm a philosopher at heart :-) it's neither naivete nor cynicism. As for your point: that's exactly what i'm challenging, that's exactly what i'm struggling with - can we call a person who is willing to "give you this if you give me that" someone who "loves" you? is that "love"? furthermore i don't understand why you assume every prostitutional arrangement must be ipso facto devoid of love.... we may be arguing in semantics of what is love... why don't you define it for me. what does it mean that the man "loves" her and she "loves" him back? |
| SimpleMan 14 Mar 1AM |
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Jewish Marriage is about partnership. Plain and simple. That's why the Fiddler On the Roof song is so funny. "For twenty-five years I've been your partner in everything and now you want to talk about love? Don't you know already? And what happened with Hashem's hand in all of this? Appreciation, attention and affection is essential in every positive relationship. Finally, if you equate marriage with prostitution, you are in for a horrible, loveless life. And the sex won't be that good either. |
| kosherstrudel 14 Mar 11AM |
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funny how the two of your posts are on the same side and opposite directions. Jmale quotes from fiddler emphasizing the value of "shared experiences" in marriage and forget about love. Sassy on the other hand, you seem to assume that the primary component of marriage is love, an assumption that i'm not so sure is true... put aside the emphasis on who's "paying" who. would you say your BIL and sister have an "arrangement" between them? [One of the reasons I've never been a fan of philosophy is that thinking about thought never seems to get you anywhere Real. You can debate how many husbands can dance on the head of a wife, but what does that have to do with Real Life?] -- spoken so beautifully like a true woman :-) i think most women share your "down to earth" attitude, that would explain why they hate gemara and math :-) |
| SimpleMan 14 Mar 8PM |
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My BIL and sister have a deep love and respect for each other. They are a team. It's not an "arrangement." They both take care of the kids, but he spends more time at work than she does, so by default she spends more time with the kids. And I don't hate gemara. I was never given the opportunity to learn much of it, but I don't hate it. Math -- well, I can live with it. You shouldn't generalize so much. Then again, you shouldn't think so much. There is so much life to be lived and experienced, but you're sitting at home pondering the philosophical truth about marriage. Get a girlfriend, get a life! ;) |
| SassyChick 14 Mar 10PM |
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I agree with Jmale. Jewish marriage is at its core meant to be a functional partnership, where the business is the business of starting and raising an emotionally, physically, and religiously healthy family. Plain and simple. The details in what the man "owes" the woman and what the woman "owes" the man are exactly that: details meant to facilitate the above-mentioned partnership. Prostitution is about paying for sex. How is this a philosophical discussion? I don't see even a remote comparison between (Jewish) marriage and prostitution. They are so notoriously divergent. |
| kurst 14 Mar 10PM |
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I had written a whole treatise for you and forgot to log in and it was all lost. A relationship of marriage is not tit for tat, you don't always get what you bargain for but you made a commitment with Hashem as your partner and you do for each other what you can and give as much as you can ideally and take whatever you need to take. Some need more; some need less but the love, the care, the combined dreams for a future that you both will share in good health and bad and children that will be sired, born and raised..this is the stuff of life. Prostitutes don't care about that..it is only about money. Marriage if you each give 100% and come away with 50..it's OK. Let's just bring it down to a Beatles song and ponder, Mr. philosopher about this: The Love you Take is equal to the love you make. Good night, it's late and I guess for now that's all I have to say on the matter but I do agree with kurst. There is no comparison between Jewish marriage and prostitution. A husband has to satisfy his wife; he doesn't have to satisfy the prostitute just turn over her fee. Enough said! |
| here I am 15 Mar 12AM |
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all good points. |
| SimpleMan 15 Mar 11AM |
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Simple Man: Earlier posts' rejection of the comparison between prostitution and marriage notwithstanding, I think you raise an interesting question. If I understood you correctly, your question is: If women marry to obtain certain things (financial/emotional security), and men marry to obtain certain things (an attractive sex partner? [this is what I understood from your post, though you did not say it explicitly]), then how is this different from any other mercenary transaction? And because sex is involved, how is it different from a mercenary transaction involving sex -- to wit, prostitution? Prostitution is a fundamentally I-It interaction -- that is, each side is using the other and relating to the other as an "it," a means to an end (rather than an end in and of himself or herself): the john is treating the prostitute as an instrument by which he can attain sexual satisfaction, while the prostitute is treating the john as a means to earn money. Neither one cares about the other as a person; neither one really *sees* the other as a whole person, as a "Thou" (the concept of I-Thou vs. I-It is from Martin Buber; the distinction between treating others as ends in and of themselves or as means to an end is discussed by Kant). Marriage *ought* to be the very opposite, a true I-Thou relationship, in which each partner brings his/her true self to the relationship and tries to see, understand, appreciate, etc., the other's true self, relating to the other as an end and not as a means to an end. Modern/secular Western culture glorifies the value of love (deep affection and caring and emotional attachment) as a prerequisite to marriage; in Jewish tradition, though, we also have a model of marriage as partnership for building a home and family (as in "Fiddler," mentioned in jmale's post), and that model is still in wide use, particularly in more traditional communities. In the latter model, which does not stress love (and certainly does not regard it as a prerequisite for marriage), what distinguishes marriage from a mercenary arrangement (such as prostitution)? The answer is: the nature of the relationship. If the relationship is an I-It relationship, in which each partner relates to the other as an instrument (for providing children and/or raising them, for providing the financial means to raise a family, for fulfilling this or that mitzva, etc.), then, I submit, it *isn't* fundamentally different from other mercenary arrangements (except that, unlike prostitution, marriage is socially sanctioned); however, the fact that a marriage isn't based on love does not mean that the relationship is necessarily I-It. Two people who don't love each other but have chosen one another as life partners on the basis of who each one is (I-Thou) can later develop love through the process of building a life together and getting to know one another deeply, if they relate to their partners as ends in and of themselves. (As one of the previous posts notes, a Jewish husband is obligated to satisfy his wife sexually. This rule encourages him to relate to his wife as a Thou and not just as a means to his own sexual satisfaction, whether or not he "loves" her.) Even if romantic love never develops, there can be an I-Thou relationship characterized by deep respect and concern and affection. In that case, I would argue, the relationship is qualitatively different from a mercenary transaction, even in the absence of romantic love/attraction/chemistry. Ideally, every marriage should be I-Thou, whether or not it is based on love; sadly, though, there are probably more than a few I-It marriages out there. As for women's relationship with gemara and math -- please don't generalize. Many women do in fact like one or both of them. |
| Anonymous - Gemara Kopf - 15 Mar 5PM |
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Simple Man, you asked a very simple question. I'm going to give you the simplest, direct, straight to the point answer. The question: What is the difference between the concept of PROSTITUTION and marriage. The answer: One 'can' be holy [prostitution], and the other 'is' holy [marriage]. |
| dark magiq 16 Mar 9AM |
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delighted by Gemara kopf post. comforting that someone understands what i'm driving at. Don't have the time now... but would just add that in this mercenary agreement that we're discussing the two sides are not exactly equal. The man is driven by ta'avah and the woman by chemda... ta'ava can be more commendable than chemda in certain dimensions being that it's a more "direct" lusting and hence not a "what can i get out of it" mentality. A person doesn't eat a nice burger, or a man have sex and his primary enjoyment stems from "what i'll be getting out of this", whereas by the chemda of women that we mentioned that is not same. [the distinction of ta'ava and chemda is made by the Gra in Mishlei. will try to offer an exact source if i can] as for generalizations, yes there are women who like gemara and math and there are effemniate men, like myself, who display womenly traits i still stand firm that "generally speaking" women opt for what's 'real' and down to earth and not the abstract. darqmagic- interesting... makes me think as to the linkage of prostitute to holiness -- both with a shoresh of קדש , not to mention קידושין |
| SimpleMan 16 Mar 11AM |
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SimpleMan: I'm not convinced that just because the object of the man's ta`ava (in the typical mercenary scenario) is the woman herself (whereas the object of the woman's chemda is not the man himself but his money) the ta`ava is "more commendable" than the chemda. In fact, one could argue the exact opposite, because although a woman who marries for money is using her husband as a means to an end, at least she is not objectifying her spouse as the mercenary man is doing by treating his wife as though she were an object that he can use for gratification of his desires -- as if she were no differenent from the "nice burger" you mention (which, before being made into a burger and treated as an object to be used at will for self-gratification, was also a creature in its own right, even if not one with which you could establish a very deep I-Thou relationship). The reason that the root for "holy" (???) is used also for prostitutes is, from what I was told, that prostitutes used to hang out around the Temple, taking an example from pagan religions in which sexual acts were part of the established religious rites. If I wanted to develop a derash on the use of the same root for "holy" and for "Temple prostitute," I think I would compare the use of the root ??? for both "holy" and "prositute" to cases in which a root means one thing and its opposite (e.g., the root ???, which is used [in two different binyanim] for "to cause to take root" and "to uproot") or to the use of euphemistic language ("lashon sagi nahor") that is the opposite of the true meaning (e.g., "to bless G-d" meaning "to curse G-d"). |
| Anonymous - Gemara Kopf - 16 Mar 7PM |
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i was specific to say the man is more commendable in "certain dimensoins"... however your reference to the "evil" of objectifying as is done with a piece of meat i do not agree with-- why do you assume the act of eating is any less intimate or demanding of an "I-Thou" relationship than sex is- both being functions of "da'at". |
| SimpleMan 17 Mar 10AM |
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Thanks, SassyChick. (= You rock, too -- you don't let anyone get away with nonsense around here.... After some reflection, I would like to qualify what I wrote in my first post. I'm afraid that, in discussing the I-Thou ideal and its I-It antithesis, I may have inadvertently presented it as though relationships were one or the other. In reality, most relationships are far more complicated and do not adhere exclusively to either model. To take a different example: bearing and raising children is an altruistic act in the sense that the parents invest tremendous effort, time, money, and emotion in their children; however, there are also selfish aspects to having children, such as passing on your genes, seeing your image in their faces, feeling pride at their achievements (though the achievements are *theirs* and not yours to be proud of), and experiencing joy from their happiness, their cute behavior, etc. Even if the latter aspects were not the primary reason (at least on a conscious level) that one had children, they are still a "benefit" -- and enjoying them does not mean that the parents are "using" their children. Similarly, even people who marry "out of love" are also getting "benefits" from the relationship that make it more attractive to them (whether these be emotional support, financial security, or an attractive sex partner, etc.) -- and the fact that someone enjoys these things does not mean that the person's motivations for marriage were mercenary. About food: since an I-Thou relationship requires two sentient beings, each of which brings an "I" to the relationship, it is not possible to have an I-Thou relationship with food. Yes, it is possible to be *mindful* as you eat, to think about what you are doing and/or about the origins of the food, but all of this is mental activity on the part of the eater alone. |
| Anonymous - Gemara Kopf - 18 Mar 5PM |
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ok |
| SimpleMan 18 Mar 9PM |
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I'm amazed that no one has actually answered the original question to anyone's satisfaction. The reality is that the difference between prostitution and marriage is academic. The ketuba doesn't say anything about love. It's a contract about one individual giving stuff and the other getting something in return. As SimpleMan said, men who have "stuff" but treat women like trash still get women falling all over them. While men who have love, respect, kindness but no "stuff" are despised by women. This is not about love and building a home. It's about trading "stuff" with the highest bidder. As such, there is no difference between prostitution and marriage. We may put spin on it all we want but at the end of the day, if the man got broke enough the woman will leave. What makes marriage "holy" is its function as a conduit for procreation. But even then, the "holiness" is for the most part "spin" to encourage people of conscience. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 20 Mar 2AM |
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Thank you SassyChick: I see that you have encompassed some of my own thoughts, check other thread with Irish shiddich problem. Jewish men are not expecting basic values that go hand in hand with Yiddishkeit. They want great bodies, especially large breasts. The women do run to the gym and do whatever they can to keep themselves together so that their husbands won't possibly stray. Guys are into money and yichus, you got that right too! The core values of Purim with the baser concentration on 'body parts' are definitely a priority. Money is also a priority. I've seen lovely young women who are basically attractive and do what they can to present themselves well be rejected because they lack the pedigree, the money or don't have the body. The guys don't want 'short' either. The older guys want young trophy wives who are going to give them more babies, and they won't be able to walk their kid to the chupa without a 'walker' assuming they are still 'alive'. Older women who have looks, savy, intelligence and 'figures' are rejected in favour of younger women. And do these younger women want these old fools, unless the guys are jewish Donald Trumps. There is a terrible crisis and the priorities that religious jewish men are exhibiting is a shundah and they should be ashamed of themselves. Yes, a glorious spiritual tradition is being degraded as you have so aptly stated, Sassychick. The guys complain that women are very picky, well I have seen guys and know many fellows who have picked themselves out of the market and they still delude themselves and continue to reject lovely women who probably would make these guys feel like a king, if only they were given half a chance. It is so very, very sad. |
| here I am 21 Mar 11AM |
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