| Subject | Re | Created By | Start Date | Last Post | ||
| nice chazal about marriage | [0] | SimpleMan | 2 Jan 20:50 | 2 Jan 20:50 | ||
| Personality typing | [5] | Ester | 1 Apr 17:45 | 27 Dec 15:45 | ||
| shana tova | [1] | ♥rabbij♥ | 20 Sep 00:19 | 25 Dec 18:15 | ||
| The Best Jewish Blogs | [6] | Anonymous | 7 Jan 21:59 | 25 Dec 18:15 | ||
| Ugly all the way | [4] | SimpleMan | 12 Sep 05:03 | 25 Dec 18:15 | ||
| Page 1 of 6 1 ·2·3·4·5·6 Total of 26 Threads | ||||||
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irish "shidduch crisis" poem |
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| For anyone interested. I came across this by way of st patricks day. it's an irish poem (translated) from many years ago about their respective "shidduch crisis". for anyone who likes poetry www.showhouse.com | |
| By: SimpleMan | |
Comments:
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I don't believe there is a shidduch crisis in Yiddishkeit. There is a woman problem. Women think none of the men they meet are marriageable and go on from date to date that if the Moshiach parked his horse in their garage they would still find him inadequate. Too many Jewish women are chasing an ideal mate who does not exist. Since they have the veto power, they create a crisis which wouldn't otherwise exist. When Moshe Rabbienu ended up marrying a shiksa were there no women in Israel? |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 20 Mar 2AM |
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I'm not bitter. I'm just stating the facts. Men's requirements are basic, in keeping with the mitzvah....ok, perhaps many men are obsessed with slim, but most Jewish women are slim anyway. Women, want to see the bank account, if it's adequate, they want to see the romance....they call it "chemistry" but it's none other than "biology" or sexual tension. They want to know what kind of kippa he wears, if everything matches up, they still come up with more..... aliyah, covering hair, skirts/pants......they want to stay where they currently live and on and on and on. Even when all these requirements are met, they say "I just don't feel anything?" Have you ever heard a Jewish man say that? There is no shidduch crisis....just a Jewish woman problem!!!! |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 20 Mar 11AM |
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A lot of men also have unreasonable requirements. They can be older and want younger women to start new families, second and even third families, and they could be dead or near dead by chupa time. Why do they think younger women would want them, unless they are a jewish Donald Trump? Some men don't want women with kids, or insist on certain educational levels and a profession ( and then they are intimidated by the woman who may be more successful than they are). There may be women who are highly intellignet, and creative and nice looking but for whatever reason do not have a profession. They are scorned as well. Men want the women to have 'bankbooks' too and do not wish to 'support' a woman, either financially or emotionally. If a woman shows any type of behaviour that is seen as a weakness or a disabiity, she doesn't have a chance either. Some women may be nervous and not show well the first day insofar as the things they might say, or how they might say it; same as men. But we are supposed to be more forgiving of 'men' and their frailties. If a man wants to rush into a relationship and the woman wants to take her time, especially if it is a second marriage and there are lots of issues to consider, she might be rejected. Then there are the geographical problems. A woman (sometimes men, not usually) are rejected and not even answered on a site such as this is they do not live in the right area or city or country and a chance at meeting one's real besherte can be like the proverbial baby, being thrown out with the bathwater for lack of effort. Long distance relationships take more work, more effort and more expense but certainly, it can reap manifold rewards to the participants. If a woman wears pants or not, wears a sheitel or not at the moment certainly does not show that this is written in stone and many things can be worked out with true affection, respect and communication. Chemistry is important and yes in many respects you are talking 'sexual tension' or 'biology' as Surrealist points out. Romance is important and should somehow be kept in the relationship at all times, perhaps not as intensely, but it should be there. A small gift, a sweet note, a unplanned telephone call, or a beautiful romantic holiday and a spontaneous hug and kiss is very important and should be interspersed in a marriage, no matter what is happening within the daily lives of the couple. There is a horrible crisis and both men and women are at fault....not just fussy women and men's requirements are not always so basic. And as far as the point about aliyah, yes both should be in agreement but it can also be worked out as well with love and patience and a combined sense of emunah and bitachon. |
| here I am 20 Mar 8PM |
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.. funny how the irish shidduch crisis of a couple hundred years ago can spark so much discussion :-) |
| SimpleMan 20 Mar 11PM |
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Those comments from "HERE I AM " were very much to the point. I agree with everything she(?) says. The last time I ventured into these kinds of "uncharted waters" was a few years ago, and I ran into some of the same mishaps with a lady who turned out to considerably misinterpret the English language, which of course caused problems for both of us. I found myself in disputes as to what a particular word meant, depending on the context, when, whatever it meant, was of no importance, regardless of the context. And I wasn't writing in Gaelic either. It was , in one way, fortunate, as I was on the verge of booking a ticket to visit, and in another way.........it caused me to retreat for a few years until now. And NOW, I see people of my age being relegated to the rubbish heap....acccording to some. If you read Charles Lever or Samuel Lover, you'd get a good idea as to the way things really were in those days. Even Thackeray wrote a very good , vey witty book of his travels in ireland in the mid 19th Century. Ireland was mostly owned by large English Landlords, and the vast majority of the indigenous Irish were tenant farmers, the farms being only a few acres. So, everyone has his troubles............ |
| Anonymous - Bluto - 20 Mar 11PM |
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O.K Everybody clear out of my way....here goes...... SPLASH............bubbles........... he's still down there, after 20 minutes....??? |
| Bluto 21 Mar 1AM |
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hop on and come along.... we dive into these unchartered waters everyday ;-) we've got polygamy, chauvenism, pre-martial sex, boy still living with mom, the evils of women,.. the list goes on and on :-) btw you dont have to fill out the anonymous box if you'll be posting with your actual name.. just click the submit button and your name will pop up automatically |
| SimpleMan 20 Mar 11PM |
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yes, do hop on and come aboard. even British expats living in Vancouver have something to contribute. yes, here I am is a 'lady', there seemed to be a (?) on Bluto's Irish treatise. i thank you for agreeing with me..it is also agreeable to have someone concur with one's point of view. Then there is the subject of shomer negia, which SimpleMan didn't include on his lists of things to be discussed. The realities, the unrealities, for 20 year olds, for the over 40 set....what's really happening or not. Should be interesting fodder to hear what the forum has to say on this subject as well. So far, it seems to be almost a 'sacred cow'...but this is a progressive 'frum' group. B.H. As Joan Rivers used to say , 'let's talk'! |
| here I am 21 Mar 2AM |
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Again, I definitely agree with you synopsis as I mentioned in more detail in the 'marriage/prostitution' subject. Hatzlacha, Sassychick...you got it right. |
| here I am 21 Mar 11AM |
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in light of the terrible plight our jewish women and girls are finding themselves in, forlorn by the countless men who have unreasonable expectations as to what they want in a spouse, I am wiling to give of myself in times of need and marry as many of these women as i can - 3, 5, 8 whatever it takes to stem the crushing numbers of jewish women being rejected by an unfair system. Together we can make a difference! |
| SimpleMan 21 Mar 12PM |
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SimpleMan: Ah, too bad we cannot clone sucha tzaddick and a martyr. Thank you for from all the countless women of all ages, sizes,political and geographical spectrums. I can only speak for myself, I'll accept your proposal, but with a qualification. I must of course be the first, and most beloved and most favoured in your eyes. You will of course please me in any and every way I can possibly imagine and of course materially you will want to do what is right and correct to ascertain that I am living in the way that I should become accustomed. Needless to say you will be dearer to me than anyone or anything, since I am your highest priority and I can only reward that kind of due diligence with love and joy and faithfulness. As far as the other wives, check with me first before continuing on. Fair enough? |
| here I am 21 Mar 2PM |
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ahh my dear how can you ask for me to choose between my loved ones. Every jewish woman is a beautiful shining star in her own unique way. No two are alike. There is no room for favorites in our bond of love together. |
| SimpleMan 21 Mar 2PM |
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Ah, we are just going to be one very big happy family....the Brady Bunch multiplied by the numbers of a Patriarch. Ah such a heady project, we are all favourites, all number #1....my goodness, it sounds like you are going to be one happy camper. |
| here I am 21 Mar 2PM |
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no no no it's not my happiness that's important it's yours and the happiness of all the other special ladies that will be able to take refuge under my wings. It's your hapiness that's important. |
| SimpleMan 21 Mar 2PM |
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'Here I Am' said these words " Why do they think younger women would want them, unless they are a jewish Donald Trump?" Need I say more? |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 21 Mar 3PM |
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'Here I Am", your take on Jewish men rejecting Jewish women is news to me. In my experience it's the women who do the rejecting. Sure I've rejected a handful, but all of them were at least 5 years older than I am. Yes, I want a family and only a few days ago I received a wink from a 59 year old. She is 15 years older than I. Is it unreasonable not to want a woman 15 years older than oneself? You may say if the roles were reversed, i.e. if she were 15 years younger, would it bother me? Of course not....because a 30 year old can make babies. That's my mitzvah. That's the fundamental reason men get married....Jewishly. Everything else is "expense account" or bonus for doing the mitzvah. Men who've fulfilled their mitzvah can afford the luxury of marrying for companionship....yes, even for sex alone. I'm not there yet. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 21 Mar 3PM |
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Simple Man & Surrealist : Both so different and yet perhaps the same. SimpleMan your altruistic attempts to convince that you wish to make all women happy is commendable but nonetheless unrealistic of course. You need to find your happiness first and you will. That is the bottom line...men will satisfy their own needs first. Surrealist: You are on a more realistic plain and are a bit older than Simpleman. Yes, whilst you are in your forties it is reasonable that you would wish to have a 30 something woman to marry, procreate, do your mitzvah work and maybe , everything else being equal...you might even learn to enjoy your wife and the companionship and yup, the sex too! Yes, their are younger women who do want Jewish Donald Trumps, but guess what...most don't! That is the truth. I know a lovely 30 year old, never married that wants more than ever to find that one wonderful besherte who is close to her own age. When older guys give her attention and a number do, even at shul...she is angered and sickened. She does nothing to encourage them and dresses very nicely but very modestly. There are other women in this group who would like to meet guys in their thirties or forties and NO OLDER; yet these guys in their late forties and fifties and even older try to entice young women in their 20's-30's who are NOT in the least interested. Some of these guys are not Donald Trump, but they are well spoken for materially. They are still looking and rejecting women their age as usual. It is quite pathetic. By the way Surrealistic...you are so intent on fixating on the mitzva of procreating that you miss the point, completely. Everything else is NOT expense account at all. Adom was given Chava as a companion..a helpmate...Hashem did not say this is woman for you to impregnate! Our matriarchs did not give birth immediately or easily and their spouses loved and cherished them all the while. Yakov gave Rachel the larger portions and she was the favourite in his eye and she was the one who changed the relationship because of HER fervent desire to have a child. Hannah was loved fiercely by her husband, all the while she was barren and cried miserably at the place of worship where Eli believed her to be drunk and eventually she gave birth to Shimshon. Our patriarchs did not throw out their wives or view their companionship or their couplings as 'expense account'. Would you divorce a woman who could not conceive ? And in those conditions, blame should never be a factor...but by the way, the guy might be the one with the low motility rate or NO motility rate. The older woman who are 'winking' at you might well be a source of great happiness and comfort and they might even be able to give you a child. Stranger things have happened, sir! Or, if you gave them a chance and met with them and did not feel comfortable with the age gap...well, they could also be a source of networking for you. If you became friends and mutulally agreed that it wouldn't work...they might have a niece or a friend's daughter or a neighbour that they would happily introduce to you. I suggest you drop the chip on your shoulder and have a more pleasant outlook...and just maybe you might find that wonderful woman for yourself, with all the correct attributes and she would even enjoy being your' 'baby machine' should she feel that you actually appreciated her as well. Please think this through and perhaps you will find a happier perspective than the one you are ascribing to. Hatzlacha. |
| here I am 21 Mar 7PM |
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"Here I Am", I'm not fixated on procreation. The bottom line is that were it not for procreation, a Jewish man would not need to get married. If it weren't a mitzvah, he could take the "lease" option or even the "rental" option.....even shiksa option. The best thing going for the Jewish woman is that mitzvah. I'm sure you know that desirable and willing shiksas are ubiquitous. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 23 Mar 4AM |
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an oversimplification if you ask me. and skewed. |
| SimpleMan 23 Mar 10AM |
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Who simpleman is skewed, Surrealist or me? I believe Surrealist, a Jewish man is urged to marry and to procreate (if possible) but to be true to his wife, to be a helpmate and put her first, read the ketubah, he must satisfy her, he must give her nice clothing, and furnishings to whatever he can afford, only the best. Again, the mitzvah of making children does not enter into that, or so lease or option or shiksa is not even an option. An even a shiksha (caught in battle) must not be touched, she must mourn her family for a year, she must grow her nails outrageously and unattratively and her hair and her form must be also unattractive to her captor/possible lover, and then he must have her 'convert' marry her and treat her as a beloved daughter of Israel and again no mention of her and the means of procreation either. Jewish marriage is a union, joined by Hashem...a holy union with three parties...so obviously, Jewish men need to get married for this reason and this reason only. |
| here I am 23 Mar 2PM |
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my friends mother in law once told me, and i always agreed with her, in her experience her sons would be offered more frequently for shidduchim and dates but the majority of the time they would have the dates broken off by the girls. Similarly conversely, her daughters would get fewer offerings for dates but majority of the time the ones she did date it was her who was ending it. In other words, in the shidduch dating game, more break ups are done by the girls than the boys. I once wanted to gather info on it statistically with a shidduch survey i made up (i posted somewhere on this site) but i never got it off the ground or got enough of a sampling to show anything conclusive. HOWEVER, that's in terms of break-ups. Being that most of the time it's men who initiate a relationship with women it IS true that many men will stay away from women who may have various unattractive features. You don't hear about it because it never gets off the ground while by women rejecting men happens because those men have already attempted in initiating something with the women. and for clarification i felt Surrealist was oversimplifying. |
| SimpleMan 23 Mar 3PM |
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I rather thought that was the case, and that you were speaking to Surrealist but I believed that I should have you clarify it anyhow. Thank you SimpleMan. Also, Sassy and SimpleMan have both confirmed what I know to be true...many reject women before anything gets off the ground for valid reasons but also too many superficial or silly reasons, i.e. geography. New York to Toronto is not that far for a guy to go to meet a lady, or even Europe/U.S/CAN. and Israel. One never knows where one's beloved can be found and we owe it to ourselves to make the best attempt possible. Looks, weight, interests, etc. also can be negotiable, sometimes. Not things like smoking or obesity or serious mental problems...these warrant second thoughts, absolutely! |
| here I am 23 Mar 7PM |
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Frankly i'm just lazy. Why should i shlep out more than 45 minutes to meet a girl whom i've never seen before. It's just not enough of a motivator. If you're talking about moving to a new location and settling there for a period of time to maybe meet someone, that i could do, but date-traveling, nah. |
| SimpleMan 23 Mar 7PM |
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"Here I Am" Perhaps I should have clarified my point. By "mitzvah" I really meant the broader yoke of Torah....not just the specific mitzvah of procreation. It's for that reason I cannot touch a shiksa even though there is a dozen of them that would marry me for every Jewess who rejects me. But because I have committed to marrying Jewish I have to put up with the abuse from Jewish women. The lease, rental and shiksa options were only mentioned "tongue in cheek" demonstrating a man who would be straying from Torah to get some consideration from a woman. Let me paraphrase you by saying 'the Jewish marriage is "supposed to be" a union, joined by HaShem'. I think if more of us, particularly the women, had that in mind when they pick and poke at every shidduch they met, we wouldn't have the shidduch crisis. My main beef is that there is this pretense that there is a crisis when, in fact, it's not only self inflicted but it's indulged upon. We have an entire community of Shadchanim and others who fuel it and families who feed into it while complaining about the crisis. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 23 Mar 10PM |
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Simple Man. Being lazy to meet a lovely young woman for a date that may become more than a date or perhaps a view to network, is worth the travel, if you get along and share some important traits with the after emailing/telephone. You just never know and besides you might see some interesting sights that you'd otherwise miss. Open up your horizons. Surrealist. Yes there are many shiksas that seem more willilng and accepting than a number of jewish woman and they seem also quite anxious to convert for a guy and a religion and not always mutually exclusive, Yes it is supposed to be a union joined by Hashem ideally and yet, it might not start off that way. I also agree that Shadchanim and others fuel problems. There are many and I mean many young women that I wanted to introduce to a number of eligible young men whom I felt would have much in common with each other and a really good chance of connecting and enjoying each other's company. However, family members made their ' inquiries' especially with baal teshevas and decided that fine boys that they were or young ladies, they were deemed 'not suitable' to meet their 'golden yichus kids, or sisters/brothers /inlaws, whatever. It is disgusting. Some of these people are still single years later. One mother of a very right wing religious family, made it necessary for her son and his religious modern orthodox fiancee to break off their engagement. She told the girl that the schools she went to were not appropriate ( modern orthodox day school and Yeshiva Seminary in Jerusalem); she also advised the girl that if she married her son that all their decisions would be made by the mother's rabbi and that she would have as many children as her body could bear. When the girl told the lady very respectfully, this is 'my' body...she got a distainful reply by the boy's mother, that she would expect a girl who went to such and such a school to make such a comment.. Two kids, broken hearted, committed to having a good Torah marriage and a son who could not go against his mother in this regard. She is still single and in her late thirties and bitter. He recently got married and this happened about ten years ago. There are many different scenerios, all equally sad and pathetic and this does not help the situation. So yes, many people in the communities are fueling this horrible fire. Men are rejecting women on a larger scale than you might realize and perhaps it is still larger with the girls. I don't believe the crisis is inflated or indulged and it is self inflicted to a degree but there are so many variables. This 'yichus' garbage and people being rejected out of hand and the couple do not even get to know that there was even a possibility is terrible. Then you have the shadchans doing their power thing, They judge a girl and guy's status, monetarily, any health problems in the family or a skelitan in the family, if the girl is a baal tesheva, if the boy is, the education, and I believe a lot of their own bias in the judgment calls also prevent possible good shiddichs from happening. There are so many, many negative interferring people that go out of their way to ruin or prevent a good marriage from happening and they ensure that some possibly viable couples will NOT meet and that is a crying shame. There is lots of lashon hora, wrongful speculation and judgement calls from people who have no business interferring. I really believe that these outside interferences have blocked many, many possible marriages and it is a disgrace so yes Surrealist, you have a viable point about these negative outside detractors and they have no place in this sensitive arena. Adults in their twenties and older should be able to decide if they wish to meet and not have this personal liberty taken away from them. I'll get off my soapbox but this really bugs me. To end on a more positive note : When a man taketh a new wife he shall not go out in the host,neither shall he be charged with any business; he shall be free for his house one year and he shall cheer his wife whom he hath taken. Shabbat Shalom. |
| here I am 24 Mar 3AM |
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"Here I am" I think we are finally on the same page. We may not agree completely but we are certainly on the same page. I am considering buying eggs and renting a womb. That way I can still perfom my mitzvah without all the mess and still get married later if I ever meet anyone reasonable. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 25 Mar 11PM |
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Surrealist I believe we may agree to disagree on some things and yes, we seem to be on the same page in the larger arena. Nonetheless, I think your final suggestion is more than a bit drastic. Keep on plugging, check out all avenues. Also there are lovely girls in Toronto. Maybe I can help you out, but unless I know your posting, we can't really connect. Would you send me a message with your profile and possibly email address and maybe I can help introduce you to someone that you need not worry about 'renting anybody's womb' and then you can fulfill two mitzvahs ;cheer the wife you hath taken and procreate, with Hashem's blessings, please G-d. Think about it. I will ble nedar to my best to help you, if you wish. |
| here I am 26 Mar 3AM |
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"Here I Am" Toronto!? I've been there. I'm supposed to have met the best they have to offer but could not convince anyone that I'm IT. I know a few people there. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 26 Mar 10AM |
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The best by whose recommendation, whose standards. It sounds like a very elitist statement. There are people who are not originally from Toronto, all the time or some who have been here and may not be on your 'expert's' list of the' best.' I'm sure you have some wonderful qualities as well and you may not have been the 'best' for the supposed' best', that probably were not the 'best 'at all. If you are not a Kohain there are other possibilities as well, wonderful women on many level and committed to their yiddishkeit. If you are interested, you know where to find me under the same moniker. |
| here I am 26 Mar 4PM |
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I am impressed with some of the Torah knowledge expressed in these comments, especially by 'here I am.' This discussion is alternately serious, and hysterically funny - some of your comments, especially from SimpleMan and here I am, just cracked me up! And SassyChick, I was very interested in your assessment of the Jewish, especially Orthodox dating scene today. Your comment was serious and full of insight. I'm sure some of it from personal experience, which is how we all learn... I am hoping the social situation will be soon rectified. However, aside from the jokes and snide remarks, my heart and love go out to all those serious people who love and value the Torah and their Judaism and are also looking for a mate, and are confused. If I were in the dating scene, I would probably also be frustrated and confused. It's a sign of our times... There is definitely something to be said for the shadchan method - not necessarily today's shadchan - rather that of the 19th century and earlier; people didn't necessarily marry for 'love' - a more modern-day concept; rather, they were matched for background, 'parnassa' ability to support a wife ( nowadays that would probably be politically incorrect) and (sometimes!) compatibility. Love came later, developing (...of course not always, but generally ) from knowing, living with and supporting a person, through good times and bad - given that each was considerate of the other, and kind. I read all your comments. My heart goes out to all of you, and I am very grateful and proud that I am a Jew, that you are all so serious about finding your soulmates, that you are serious about rectifying difficult social situations - a form of 'tikkun olam' I am sure - and that I raised five wonderful children, now grown (oh, and btw - only the eldest of whom is married...!), who each in their own way, are intertwined with and love Judaism. I don't know whether this will be helpful at all, but I will reprint this comment of mine in a new thread (if I can figure out how to do it!) and also print a copy of a profile someone I know once wrote, which, if I were looking, would pull at my heartstrings, it is so personal and honest. I hope it helps some of you figure out how to promote yourselves, and helps you find your 'bashert'... I want to take this opportunity to invite serious people to visit my weblog: lady-light.blogspot.com. The Blog name is "Tikkun Olam". It is NOT on this subject... Kol Tuv, Savta |
| Savta 27 Mar 8PM |
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Thank you Savta for your kind thoughts, I truly appreciate it. Thank you for your compliments regarding my torah knowledge ( I am a work in progress and also strive to learn more and improve any knowledge that I am in possession of) and also I am a pretty funny person. I guess I can try to work at being something between being a wannabe Rebbetzin Esther Jungreis and a Joan Rivers type as well. I'm equally comfortable in either role. I love to teach and inspire but I also love to make people laugh and yes, occassionally shock them too! Chodesh Tov and good luck to you on your weblog. When I have some time, I will do my best to check it out. |
| here I am 28 Mar 10PM |
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"Here I Am" Out of the blue, I just received a message from a beautiful, bright, machmir 30 year old living in Israel. Yes, she is 15 years my junior and I didn't even have to seek her out. Our e-mails have been ablaze the past 36hrs. I'll keep you posted. |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 29 Mar 2AM |
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Surrealist: Go for it!!! There is nothing better for the spirits than 'blazing' emails. |
| here I am 29 Mar 10AM |
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"Here I Am" I'm flying to Israel after Pesach to meet this wonderful shidduch. Yes, e-mails are still blazing!!! |
| Anonymous - Surrealist - 30 Mar 4PM |
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Surrealist: I am very pleased for you and enjoy the blazing emails and look forward to your safe and wonderful trip to Israel. I really hope things turn out as you wish. It is all hasgacha protis..but take it slow. Blazing emails can possibly turn into a blazing and wonderful relationship or otherwise. Be careful, but enjoy...there is a fine balance. I wish you hatzlacha. |
| here I am 31 Mar 1AM |
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check out www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1090 and I would like to have some dialogue on this most frightful and bizarre attempt by Islamist to bring to bear the most horrendous act upon 'some of their women'. Thank G-d we are Jewish, another reason to be grateful and they blame the Jews (specifically Mother Sarah) for this too because of poor Hagar. Pathetic. |
| here I am 31 Mar 1AM |
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Oh dear, I knew this conversation would happen. |
| ♥EriBerryPie♥ 20 Sep 4PM |
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